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Are you satisfied from this decades character of the Dobie?

 
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Δημοσιεύθηκε: Τρι Σεπ 26, 2017 5:32 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Ads

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robin
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Δεκ 27, 2008 4:55 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Are you satisfied from this decades character of the Dobie? Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Dont you think that something is missing? The spirit the temperament? Is this the dog that Louis Dobermann has created?
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Lord Constantine



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Δεκ 27, 2008 12:00 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

too heavy if u ask me. About the temperament i am not sure since i am a novice handler. But i think i would except something "MORE"

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elf07



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Δεκ 27, 2008 12:49 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Theoritically speaking, it wouldnt be possible for the dog that Doberman has created to be the same exact dog of today. Times are a changing and species must evolve and adjust. Especially if you take into consideration the very fast pace of change in our modern society. Furthermore are our needs and wants the some that Doberman had?
Maybe you should rephrase your question. His vision, or his dream something like that. Laughing
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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Δεκ 27, 2008 1:03 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Dobermann created a very hard "mutt"- this dog could not lιve today, and especially not with Robin... :mrgreen:
Anyway, some dogs with the "old" character are born even today - they usually end in shelters or euthanized.

How can you have an opinion about something you never experienced?
History says that they were very sharp. I have experience owning over-sharp dominant animals - they are not good for anything. Practically useles.


Έχει επεξεργασθεί από τον/την Basil στις Κυρ Δεκ 28, 2008 12:14 am, 1 φορά
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romulus



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Τρι Ιαν 27, 2009 8:24 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Dobermann created a very hard "mutt"- this dog could not lιve today, and especially not with Robin... Mr. Green
Anyway, some dogs with the "old" character are born even today - they usually end in shelters or euthanized.

Last edited by Basil on Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24 [smilie=book2.gif] Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24 Trilly-77-24
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robin
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 1:39 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

DearRomulus, just a few years ago I had the opportuni to live with 2 of these "old character" mutts -as you call them. They didnt go to a shelter they didnt suffer euthanasia. It was difficult and tough to live with them but from the other hand it was very interesting as well. THIS was the absolut guard dog, the absolut bodyguard the absolut "brother". Both of these dogs were just living to be with their one and only friend. Their friend (that for todays dogs we call master) could be anything BUT unfair to them. This is what I call dobermann and nothing else.

By the way both of them were considered as "soft" dogs. I would imagine if I could have other more "hard" than them.
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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 2:21 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

The old type of character is not for an average man.
This is the cause that an "old" type dob could end to a shelter or euthanized.
I have some hard dobs and I prefer them to the modern softer version but I am not average owner either.
Robin, stop fantasize please. You had never own a real old type of dog.
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robin
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 3:40 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

why Basil?
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 3:47 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Because that character that your dogs had was not the original character that herr Dobermann bred. This is only in your phantasy. The old character disapeared rapidly due to shows since 1920.
I am tired to read about character faults as positive.
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robin
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 4:30 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Basil, I also can judge -from my point of view - that numerous dogs of today -of various owners- do not have the character of the today's dobermann. I will not do it. Allow me to have my own beliefs as I surely do for your beliefs as well.
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Παρ Ιαν 30, 2009 4:49 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

I agree, many today dobs have insuffitient character.
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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Μάρ 15, 2009 5:36 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

The following text considering the doberman's temperament is a copy of an article written by the well known Ray Carlisle (breeder under the name Cara's and former president of the DPCA):

-Temperament can be described as both the physical and mental reaction to any stimulus. It includes the attitude of the dog and what that attitude expresses. We normally think of behavior as temperament and for purposes of this discussion we need not debate the scientific definition. When we train or condition our dogs to stimuli we are modifying its natural behavior. What you see is not the natural temperament of the dog but a learned behavior. Temperament is both instinctive and learned behavior combined. One extreme is a dog afraid, nervous, worried, always showing panic behavior and will continue to show fear of the same stimuli after repeated exposure to the same stimuli. The other extreme is the very stable "bombproof" dog, with a strong nervous system and not afraid of the devil himself. This could be described as the "fearless dog."

-Hallmarks of typical breed temperament can show considerably different from breed to breed, which is a factor directly related to the function of that breed. Dobermans are first and foremost "protection" dogs and should not be penalized for behaving in accordance to the purposes for which they were bred. Having the courage and determination to protect does not mean to "attack." On the other hand, a docile, laid back, lethargic, non-interested Doberman might be a good family pet, but does not meet the benchmark standards for ideal Doberman temperament. Just as we expect a Doberman behaving with erratic nervousness or with unprovoked aggression is not a desirable breed representative either.


-There are many elements of temperament not mentioned in our standard. Stability, confidence, courage, sharpness, hardness, sociability, sensitivity and combativeness to name a few. Don't confuse or interchange temperament with character. They are not the same. Character is the overall blueprint of behavior, the total dog. What and how a dog thinks of itself; it's self-esteem, reflecting that undeniable arrogance of a proud and noble Doberman. Temperament is part of a dog's character...

-A discussion of temperament must include "drives" whether instinctive or acquired and developed through training. The most important drive is Social Drive because it is most necessary for survival. The desire to be with the pack, both human and canine, means isolation creates behavior problems. They include destructive or overly dependent actions. Prey drive—the desire to chase the cat or ball. The stronger the drive the harder the chase. Defense Drive—the dog's desire to protect and defend itself. Quick to react to a threat or a challenge. Dominance Drive—the desire to control the action and be the leader of the pack. Poor imprinting can cause improper development of this drive. It is important in the young dog to establish the proper pack order. Territorial Drive, Fighting Drive, Protection Drive, Submission Drive are all drives that are components of temperament. Temperament is a total concept requiring an understanding of the dog's relation to its environment and what it has learned through its experiences.


Dogs with good temperament have stable, confident attitudes. Dobermans by nature are not everyone's best friend. The aloof dog with a degree of suspicion does not reflect a faulty temperament.

Good temperament is not an accident. It requires breeders to do their homework. Research the lines of the dogs being bred to insure they have been tested for stability, confidence, strong drives, body and sound sensitivity, hardness, and good health. Health also has an effect on temperament. Good health as well as temperament must be tested. If you don't test you don't know, your guessing!

Learned behavior is extremely important in a well-adjusted dog. It begins with that portion which is imprinted at a very young age and nurtured through life. What you imprint in the first 8-20 weeks of your dogs life will have a lasting effect on the temperament
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Μάρ 15, 2009 7:03 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Basil έγραψε:
The old type of character is not for an average man.
This is the cause that an "old" type dob could end to a shelter or euthanized.
I have some hard dobs and I prefer them to the modern softer version but I am not average owner either.
Robin, stop fantasize please. You had never own a real old type of dog.


The old type are and for childrens without experience because have fantastic family character .I do not talk about common ancestors of actual show lines or from beginning of century - 1900 years. I talk about old Eastern lines .

In reality euthanasia is one new practice .I never heard by euthanasia in past.

In reality the old dobermanns was brave and very well BALANCED !
In reality I seen with my eyes one trained fighting ElGreco dog who refuse fighting command of his master in face of other ElGReco more old and powerfull.

In reality ElGreco males was OZN's in face of actual dobermanns. Cenk Assarum was one double OOZZNN . For mans that never seen in their life one simply OZN , please don't use the double ! (Cenk appear in upper catalog at 233 position )

In reality, in my town, after more that 20 years, Cenk Assarum El Greco and ElGreco dogs remaining the unique legends . And for me too !

In reality many from the new dobermanns are one jocke without instincts.
Some time They lost and reproductive instincts. But trainers learn them to bite one cloth and request to them maximum obedience like pussicats. Dobermann must to have PRIDE .
In reality to request to the dobermann to be pussicat all time , this mean to eliminate exactly guard native genes .In my opinion dobermann is little paradoxal: guardian and friendly in same time. All based in incredible inteligence.

In reality the old atack like OZN's , but in same time have excelent family characer . In reality the eastern dogs was longevive and have great character because selection was closed more that 20 years in this direction .
Many from GENETICAL secrets are losted today because the dogs are losted (genetically secrets of character and longevity). What remaining are affected and their matrix are changed. But the right genes and right dobermanns still exist .

Returning to old, Cenk Assarum el Greco mother was Nelsa de Tomis from Sovarady Anni and Valdimora Boston line. Ancestors are BELVAROSI SILVIO LORD , SZAMOSPATI BURSI CARO and ADIS Z ALGI line. This genetic you can find in Cobra kennel begining.

Here is Aris from Cobra kennel at 11 years . He play like one young.

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I like the fine of the movie. They was NO limits !


Έχει επεξεργασθεί από τον/την Valencia στις Δευ Μάρ 16, 2009 10:05 pm, 3 φορές συνολικά
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Μάρ 16, 2009 12:58 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Returning to the present, personal I consider dobermanns from today are OK.
Maybe not perfect...but Ok. Maybe some from them need more sharpness or stability, maybe need more family character or need more basical instincts or guard instincts . But...I do not consider character to be the principal problem of dobermann breed from today.
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Οκτ 16, 2010 8:24 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Dober-maniac έγραψε:
...i think that suspicion is a good reason make someone feel nervous.So i like suspicious Dobermanns...LOL.. hate-king


Many persons confuse the nervosity with dobermanns capacity to make high working effort and concentration.
The TRUE Germans breeders said that a dobermann must alwais to remaining ' CLEAR MIND' and STABLE .
The too low molosoidal character or oposite, the nervosity are destructive elements presents in dobermann breed and both are generated by a wrong character genetical poligenetic matrix.

Παράθεση:
1.It is almost impossible all Frankies had the same character as Basil said,because it depents from their ancestors,and they weren't always the same .

2.Τhis was the reason many of these dogs have helped develop some working lines except show lines.

3.About Health...if Frankenhorst aren't healthy then who are they ?....

4.Valencia...Doyou like Frankehorst?..



1. You little wrong.
The actual show lines are based principal on hundredth of time on SAME and AGAIN and AGAIN in same ancestors principal FORELL and FRANCKENHORST.

Majority of them have around 7 years average age.
Then...you have response at point 3. That explain actual average race age , actual health problems . Sure, health problems exist everywere , but never the incidance was not so big like today .

For this reason I will responde at point 4. I admired some Frankenhorst, they are/was beautifull . But that bloodline maded by a great breeder like Sanja was , was used incorectlly by vanitouse breeders , for destruction and dominance , and today the race pay the price of this vanity .
That is innacceptable for me.

Regard point number 2, the working Qualities of Show lines based on Frankenhorst , can you name few WM first 3 places based on pure Forell/Frankenhorsts ?
The answer is NO.
Best line in working from that bloodlines are Jivago Vantij. Probable Jivago was a stable and good dobermann, but is a joke to consider his line a workings one .

Or.. other example is V. LES DEUX PEUPLIERS . To consider Arrow Harrowsberg , a dog with working qualitis is a bad joke again. This line use insertion of Bayern and other true working bloodlines. That explain this kennel performance.

Other example Gino Citone or Gelo Robis .
To consider Frankenhorsts via V. LES DEUX PEUPLIERS the responsable element for Gelo Robis performance is a joke again.
Consider somebody Citone working performance is based on Frankenhorsts and show lines ? LOL .

If somebody like to understand the true , study their pedigrees back ! And here, the HIDED TRUTH can be finded .

Always the working siegers have genetical structure based on Langenhorst (Mooreiche) , old Eastern lines , Weinberge via Bayern , Bingo Elendonk and others rare / secret structure bloodlines .

For example study the pedigrees of Jano Bayern (is alive at 13 years) , Kravallo , Alex-Black-Sagitta father of Cara's Red Sasha , Donak , Zarek.

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To consider Frankenhorst what they never was (longevive working dogs) is dangerouse for dobermann genepool.
Because in this time, we lost THE LAST with true longevive and fantastic dobermanns. Maybe not so beautiful like show dobermanns from Giota pictures (if Gribbon accept I send a little kis to her Silenced ) , but fantastic character and longevity. Their rare or secret genetically matrix will never be substituted . If we lost them , will be losted forever.
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gribbon



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Σαβ Οκτ 16, 2010 11:24 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail
hahaha!!!! I accept it!Giota thanks you!!!! tanzt hate-king
But considering the Franckenhorst dogs i think that you are not right 100%.Some Franckenhorst had exceptional character.For example in Greece we ALL (Baskal can speak also about him) know the super working character of Indo v.Franckenhorst who lived until the age of 14 years.He had sch and ipo1 plus Greek test of character (like ztp) and even today,after so many years,the legendary Italian trainer Roberto Donini speaks about this dog.
J.M.vd Zwan wrote at his book "In the begining,A history of the Dobermann" (1999 edition) about Alva v.Franckenhorst: "His trainer mr W.Bork from Germany wanted to train him for sch2 and 3 but the owner was affrait that afterwards Alva would become too difficult for him to manage so he took back the dog to Holland...He had a very strong and dominant character.Alva easily passed his sch1.He was the FIRST Dutch bred dobermann to pass the German Koerung!!!"

Alva who was born in 1971 is present 15 times in the pedigree of Ferrofarahgomez di Campovalano,who is a male with exceptional character too.

Vivre Viven v.Franckenhorst was SCH 3 dog as well as her father,Nimrod hillo v.Franckenhorst.For him Zwan wrote that he was widely acclaimed for his fierce fighting spirit! (page 282) At the page 243 he wrote: "In character he (Nimrod Hilo) was outstanding and he easily earned his sch3."

For the great Dea Dolores v.Franckenhorst Zwan wrote (page 339) :
"Withe her very good character she passed her ipo2 with ease...Not sattisfied with regular workouts,she made the local news when she was used to apprehend a real life criminal,that had grabbed a woman hostage.Dea went in and confronted the criminal who was threatening people with a gun.For this she received a Medal of Honour from the Dutch Police Force!!!!!!!!!!!"

Friend Valencia you mentioned the great character of Jivago v.h.Wantij a dog who in fact he is a...Franckenhorst.According to Zwan (page 450) : "Jivago's pedigree is mainly built up out of "van Franckenhorst" blood".I am sorry to say that but you are TOTALY wrong when you say that is joke to consider his line as a working one.I know people from Germany who have seen Jivago in work.Jivago worked like REAL working line dob.He had similar character (and better) to the working lines.That is a fact.What is the problem if he was a show line dog? He worked like the dogs of working lines.That is the most important!
Another exceptional dog with high working abilities,very famous for his special character was Baron Bryan v.Harro's Berg.He was a Franckenhorst too,son of Vitesse!!His influence can be found in some of the greatest lines like Norden Stam,Roveline,Citone etc.

Fella v.Franckenhorst was another superior character.He had sch3,TAN (French character test) and Koerung (with 1A for life).
For the end i must mention anothe sch3 and Koerung (1A for life) dog.The GREAT Hertog Alpha le Dobry.He was coming from the Franckenhorst line too,as son of Don Dayan v.Franckenhorst.One of the best sons of Hertog Alpha was Hargos vh Wantij who was an exceptional charcter too.THis line is alive in Royal Bell kennel today.
Dear Valencia if some breeders didn't use the Franckenhorst blood correctly,then this is not a general practise.Many lines have been POSITIVELY influenced by Franckenhorst.The breed today is in higher level thanks to Franckenhorst bloodline too.One of the best for beauty and character.
Considering the working champions and the dogs who get the first places in WM IDC,allowed me to say that i prefer a dog like Jivago v.h.Wantij (super in character like working line dogs and super champion too in morphology) than a SG working sieger.Many dogs from working lines are terrible in anatomy and type.Jivago was a complete DOBERMANN. The "X","Z" or "W" working dog who can take only a "very good" (SG) in conformation is just a NOT complete dobermann.
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Dober-maniac



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 12:52 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail hate-hail Gribbon...you are so right this time. Trilly-166-icon_thumright Trilly-166-icon_thumright Trilly-166-icon_thumright...

Valencia....Frankies and Campovalanos is the only RIGHT path from forell s and fustersfeld's...so to the past.I know that you dont like forells but think about fustersfeld and more other special breedings.We own them a lot,for the REAL and UNREAL(Generally)Doberman.About the Health...few times heard as a "news"from someone about "who" and "how" is Dying .. but this, applies only few dogs...The Famous dogs!!!!(few on number if you can imagine the HUGE world of Dobbiezs).. However i think that Frankies was OK on this aggregate Factor.At least i can see it...here day by day ..every day ,every minute from some dog pedigree 's..
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The world largest Database describe s features, ages,progenys,siblings..e.t.g and have an inbreeding calculator providing per cent the blood of ancestors.
It can't be Liars...This is History and REAL history telling the truth.

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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 8:58 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Regarding
gribbon έγραψε:

Friend Valencia you mentioned the great character of Jivago v.h.Wantij a dog who in fact he is a...Franckenhorst.According to Zwan (page 450) : "Jivago's pedigree is mainly built up out of "van Franckenhorst" blood".


LOL.
His pedigree , except ONE Bingo Elendonk , is fully by Frankenhorst and have 12 OLIVE OF BAMBY'S PRIDE .
If 1 Bingo transform that bloodline in a working one , imaginate what can do more that 10-20 Bingo in 1 pedigree.
I will DO that !

Here e have a word: " with one flower the spring never come ! "
Nor with 1 Bingo or 3 longevive dobermanns.

Forell/Frankenhorst NEVER will represent the right Furstenfeld path.
Furstenfeld represent the equilibrum and longevivity of the race, he represent the right path , unfortunately losted .
Many Furstenfeld bloodlines was eliminated. What happened in my country, the genocide maded by new breeders with international suport , it is not a isolate thing.
My dobermanns based on Arena play the arena of death too .
The second Romanian bloodline based on Afra de Aranca endure double [CENSORED] and presure maded by dogs affected by DCM , cancer , etc.

That our last bloodlines still resist but the question is HOW LONG TIME will resist without refresh in face of beautiful dead corpses ? Till the next inbreeding or [CENSORED] on DCM or Cancer ?

Majority dobermanns from the international dominant bloodlines imported in Romania are dead or affected .
And they will die and in future .
That are the FACTS !

Regarding the facts , first pig eyes I saw from that bloodlines on imports. The stupid character too.
The ills kill majority of Romanian dobermanns based on that bloodlines.
The skeletoin problems affect many of our dobermanns.
The DCM/Cancer kill young dobermanns.
The impotance is present on high level between studs .
The missing teeths, testicles are present on that bloodlines on high incidance.
Today every day more numerouse dobermanns have the 3 eyelid and much skin .
Every day appear more health problems on our puppys .
Today the average age is 7-8 = exactly average age of that dominant bloodline .
The breeders keep secret death reasons and ills.
The advertising promote ill dangerouse champions which destroy the genetic of dobermann race.

Thats are the facts .
"This is History and REAL history telling the truth "
I will stop here this discussion.
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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 2:28 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

The fact is that Jivago was a dog with a great character - also his sons Vosoghoni and Vincent (from a FRANCKENHORST female) and the majority of his pups have excellent character. This cannot change because you dont like his pedigree Valencia. It is FACT.
Genetics are not simple - Furstenfeld = good and Forell = Bad is a great missconseption.
My personal experience with Franckenhorst dogs is completely inverse than yours - Indo, Joy and Grazia were pearls - strong, clever and of great quality.Longlived also.
Kevin - a grandson of the FRANCKENHORST bloodline Phabio was also awesome and this is continued with his descedants from Franckenhorst line females.
Maybe old Romanian lines were not combatible with Franckenhorst and the results were disapointing - but this is an incident and not the rule. Franckenhorst line dogs in general INPROVED the breed everywere.
The conservation of the old Rumanian and old Russian is a good thing, also the need to use more Furstenfeld to improve the genetic balance of the breed is a very good thing too, but to believe lies about certain dogs and lines - and worst more to propagate these lies is a very bad thing for the breed.
If your recent breeding has some quality, ( I believe it has), is due to the Franckenhorst and Norden Stamm blood - and not because of the less than 6% of the whole genome old Romanian.

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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 2:44 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

I have no interest in any Jivago, Pimm's , Renewal , Jared, Matador, or other dominant Frankenhorst lines.
DN, Citone and Prinzz are unique accepted by me because their great starting bloood-lines .
Let said to that personal preferance.

Παράθεση:
Kevin - a grandson of the FRANCKENHORST bloodline Phabio was also awesome and this is continued with his descedants from Franckenhorst line females.


Friend Baksal, please don't bla bla with me about that bloodlines. Both of us know what happened with your Son of Kevin ancestors .
I am not here to judge your dogs .

Basil έγραψε:

Genetics are not simple - Furstenfeld = good and Forell = Bad is a great missconseption.


I talk about IMENSE health problem of actual bloodliens. In their majority the big champions are dead. Their genetic are based on Forell via Frankenhorst.
That are FACTS and can be proved matematically .


Basil έγραψε:
Maybe old Romanian lines were not combatible with Franckenhorst and the results were disapointing


Wrong.
Romanian dobermanns was TOTALLY eliminated , don't exist in any mixture.
For this reason I accoused the IMENSE DESTRUCTION and GENOCIDE !

The Romanian dobermanns was not mixed with Frankenhorst , except Arena and Afra bloodlines . And I regreat because happened this.
Our last two great females genetic was INFECTED with this dominant genetic fully by problems !

The price of surviving of Arena and Afra is imense. I decided to PUT POINT and I will don't mix my bloodlines more .

If F.F. and her puppys will escape will be ONLY because she was lucky and because Arena still is here .
Then ..I pray to God that luck has not been finished and Arena to resist one more time and her characters cross till present and protect Heraclea !
Unfortunately I don't know how much Vasilis understood from this discussion .


Basil έγραψε:
If your recent breeding has some quality, ( I believe it has), is due to the Franckenhorst and Norden Stamm blood - and not because of the less than 6% of the whole genome old Romanian.


False. It is possible old traits and genes to cross generation after generation till to present if characters are strong and dominant.
Arena blood was the best and her characters are not totally losted .

I have not intention to put Vasilis against the rest of breeders .
Then I think is more good to stop here this discussions .
Thank you.
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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 4:12 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

What happened exactly to Talws ancestors? Because his mother is alive...His grandmother (of almost pure Franckenhorst-Forrel blood) lived to 11, his great grandmother died at 10 from grapes poisoning (and many of her more franckenhorst line kids lived above 11 - some to 15), her mother at 10 - pyometra after a healthy litter at 10 (!), because the owner didnt care to give antiviotics, and Kevin himself, didnt die fron DCM as many no brained anti Citone maniacs claim.His death was a by product of medication side effects. The medication was necessary to cure an infection. The "weakness" of the dog was that his body didnt get the medication well.
And Kevin was a Citone with double Tequilla - the franckenhorst bloodline was not the majority there.

In reality, the most longlived dobs here in greece are rich in Franckenhorst blood.

We have not anything to tell to Vassilis about his dog - she is his dog and he can do what he thinks better about her. Her bloodline for me is neutral - I like the dog for herself not for the bloodline. A good dobermann is a good dobermann for itself.

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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 4:38 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Basil έγραψε:
...His grandmother (of almost pure Franckenhorst-Forrel blood) lived to 11, his great grandmother died at 10 from grapes poisoning


Laughing Laughing That because she was not a Weinberge from the Wine land Laughing Laughing

I know very well actual world lines are based 80% on that show lines and any discussion can become personal. This is other big dirty thing of this breeding system , breeders defend what they love .
I have no intention to atack yours bloodlines .

Maybe Greecs was lucky and had lucky experiances with that bloodlines but in Romania the last 15 years mean only death, health problems and destruction of our longevive lines.

Unfortunately my thinking is different than Baksal thinking , I don't believe that individual qualities can appear from nothing and I believe on genes , on genetical baggage and background .

I secure all of you , I will be happy if after 10 years , with God help , I will see Heraclea longevive beautiful descendants in Greece .

I accept friend Gribbon position (even I am sad because he is in the oposite side than me ) because I know he search phisical perfection.

But dobermann mean much more , a ill dobermann without right character is only one surrogat. No matter how beautiful he is or from what bloodline.

Personal I have some doubts the succes can be possible ussing show bloodlines without other lines equilibrum (and the health problems in my opinion tend to become general) but I have trust on Greec breeding .
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gribbon



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 8:08 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Considering the Franckenhorst's influence i didn't say only about Jivago vh Wantij.I accept if you don't like him.But that was not my point.He is not my favourite type too.What i want to say at my previous post is that Franckenhorst positively influenced some of the greatest kennels,like Wantij,Neerlands Stam,Campovalano,Citone,Roveline,Royal Bell etc. Ok some more some other less but the truth is that all of us we MUST be proud of the dobermann breed because the so-called show lines dogs have the best character in comparison to the show lines of the other working breeds (like rottweilers,german shepherds,boxers,schnawzers etc).A very important factor for this is the influence of the franckenhorst bloodline.
Dear friend Valencia for me the character MUST be number one priority for breeders and fanciers,so i don't search only for physical but also for psychical perfection.
As i wrote at the previous post a SG working sieger is not a complete dobermann.For you dear friend Valencia i post a super ztp video of a complete dog who is champion in beauty and work (italian and aiad champion-Member of World champion Italian National team in Apolda IDC WM 2009
Second place at the Italian championship IPO3 (working AIAD championship) 2009-Member of Search and Rescue team).
Enjoy Argo (Vasco di casa Coppo-Nera della Sciara) and look carefully what Pezanno will do after the long distance attack and how the dog stay calm and focus in the sleeve.For people who understand about work,this performance is extraordinary!!!!!!!!!!!!
(a! long distance? very loooong distance!!!Only for the dogs who can do it!!!!!!!! For just normal dogs is impossible to have correct bitte in similar situation)

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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 8:23 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

gribbon έγραψε:
1.we MUST be proud of the dobermann breed because the so-called show lines dogs have the best character in comparison to the show lines of the other working breeds (like rottweilers,german shepherds,boxers,schnawzers etc).A very important factor for this is the influence of the franckenhorst bloodline.

2.Dear friend Valencia for me the character MUST be number one priority for breeders and fanciers,so i don't search only for physical but also for psychical perfection.




1. Sorry is FALSE.
The let say stable character is not because Frankenhorst or Forell. I don't know them directly but I don't like what I saw from that lines .
I am not blind to don't recognise their beauty but this beauty was used like a weapon , ON HIGH levels , against dobermann breed. Today the internet exist and informations are free. I read that they was nervouses , or agresive or medium in working .

I think few persons refuse to understood the TRUTH said by Otmar Voegel in Diamante Nero Interview .

You omiss exactly the RIGHT SIDE . For example you omiss to said in Argo genetic exist dogs like :
DE LA MORLIERE , JACK WEINBERGE ,QUINN DEI NOBILI NATTI ,D'ACIAIO's via CHENJ ,CASTOR V D MOOREICHE , ALI V.LANGENHORST and over 1.000 FURSTENFELD ancestors.

I will never understood how is possible to thanks to a medium dog character like Quirinus or to Arrow Harrowsberg which bited his owner(finnaly euthanasied). Or how somebody can be proud with a female like Olive Bamby , a nervouse female which represent the base of Frankenhorst line , present by hundredth of time in actual dobermanns pedigrees ( 43 times in Argo pedigree) .

How long lived that dobermanns ? Exactly like their descendants today.
A international desaster.
Pimm's , Jared, Hugo, Boris are only few last examples from dobermanns based on Frankenhorst/Forell . And many many others about we don't know.

Do you ask yourself what will happen with their hundredth of puppys ?

2.First is HEALTH, second CHARACTER and 3-th BEAUTY.

Maybe we are not soo oposite, but..I have something to do.


P.S. Baksal have right: the INDIVIDUAL is important. But the genetic background is important too because offer to INDIVIDUAL the chance to appear.

I will explain LOGICAL :


Today almost all are MIXED. This is a evidance.

If dominant lines are soo good, then 80% from world dobermanns must be LONGEVIVE and SUPER CHARACTER ! Or..this don't happened.

Why ARGO or Ferro are exceptions and why majority of world dobermanns are NOT like them ?
Why majority of dobermanns died under 10 years and average age is 7-8 ?
Why only few dobermanns are over 13 years longevive ?

-Because the majority of dobermanns have only the genes of Frankenhorst/Forell dominant bloodlines .
-Because ARGO and Ferro inherited LUCKY GENETICAL STRUCTURES of (is evident) RARE GENES of CAHARACTER AND LONGEVITY .

Then.. think TWICE before to said Icaro, Nike , Argo, Gino, Fero are Forell/Frankenhorsts Wink .

Q.E.D.
UPS !
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gribbon



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 9:43 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

I didn't say they are franckenhorst but they do have franckenhorst influence.What i said is that franckenhorst have positive influence not only to the beauty of the breed but to the character also.How you can be sure about the dogs you mentioned as bad characters???Some people make negative comments about Quirinus BUT some other very positive.Why we must make conclusions based on rumors??You said that Olive of Babys Pride (base of franckenhorst line) was nervous and she is 43 in Argo's pedigree.But Argo is NOT nervous at all.How many times exist a dog in another dog's pedigree is not important alone.A number is just a number.
You said Arrow vom Harro's Berg bitte his owner and has been euthanasied.How can you be sure that it was a dog's fault or bad character and not a bad owner????The father of the above mentioned Argo was according to his first owner a dangerous dog and he wanted to do euthanasia because of agressive behaviour of the dog against him.Roberto Donini told him no and he took the dog at his home.After some weeks his daughter could take him from the box,give a kiss in the face and play!!!!!!Vasco was one of the most exceptional characters in the last decades.But only because of good luck he stayed alive.In case that the owner euthanasied him then another Valencia would say :bad character!!
As for Arrow v.Harro's Berg i really don't know who told you that he was a dog of bad character but again Zwan says something totaly different : "He (Arrow) has a good temperament and easily passed his ipo3."
For Olive you said "nervous female" but Zwan says "HER CHARACTER WAS EXCELLENT".
So what do you suggest?To continue blaming franckenhorsts based on rumors and incorrect info or to listen to people who know better than ALL OF US what the truth is??
I also wrote at a previous post about other important characters from franckenhorst.About dogs who have a tremendous impact to our breed.And what i wrote has been taken from the book of mr Zwan,one of the breed's greatest experts.
As for what is first and second,i respect your opinion,i know that many people agree with you but i will always say:first is the character.We love a dog NOT because he is champion,NOT because he is healthy BUT WE LOVE THE DOG FOR HIS CHARACTER!!!!
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 9:53 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

I never said in Frankenhorst don't exist beauty or right values. But I said that beauty was used in DESTRUCTIVE mode.

I think I respect more this lines (how long lonvevity of last romanian line was used in their favor ), than many other breeders which use [CENSORED] and destroy the health of race for beauty and show titles.

Furstenfeld opinion and Otmar Voegel opinion is not exactly like NS breeder write . Nor my PERSONAL opinion regarding the dobermanns ( descendants ) which I saw (nervouses, rotwaillerians, agresive, crazy, impotents ).

I am not sure if you understod what I writed with bold litters.
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 10:04 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Now I saw the Argo video.
Yes, he is fantastic. His calm concentration after atack is great and I rarery saw that to a dobermann.
How click up and click down work perfectly .
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gribbon



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Κυρ Οκτ 17, 2010 10:31 pm    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

hate-king
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Dober-maniac



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 12:02 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Cheers to Argo.He is one of my top 10 Dobs ever..
Tell me what about this dog alertness character to the vibeo below .Is she good?
I beleive is ok of Beauty or character too...Maybe a little bit less to the beauty than character because of her fathers blood...Rolling Eyes
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As you can see by yourselves,there are plenty of Frankies at her pedigree.
As my friend Gribbon said many lines have been POSITIVELY influenced by Franckenhorst.The breed today is in higher level thanks to Franckenhorst bloodline too.One of the best for beauty and character. Rolling Eyes
Off course there are no words for the trainer....He is one from the top...

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Έχει επεξεργασθεί από τον/την Dober-maniac στις Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 10:37 am, 1 φορά
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Valencia



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 6:51 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Dober-maniac έγραψε:

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As you can see by yourselves,there are plenty of Frankies at her pedigree.


My God !
Od Demona have the pedigree paternal based on ALI V. LANGENHORST , the base of Mooreiche line . Mooreiche is a TRUE working line not surrogat.

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Maternal two fantastic old Eastern ALMA ZE SAMOROSTU and ADI Z BARTOSOVA CHOVU .

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And you said her character is because Frankenhorst Guido presance !
I died by laugh !
Yes..the winners always said their history how they like but always , over the time , truth appear. And game is not over yet Laughing
We will see.
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Dober-maniac



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 9:31 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Παράθεση:
And you said her character is because Frankenhorst Guido presance

Iam glad make you laught .. Trilly-166-icon_thumright ..But dear Valencia ..actually both parents have a tons of drive and you cant criticize the character only from her father.
Because her moreiche ancestors were ungly...now she is beauty keeping the temperament too, without losing anything.So what make you suppose that father is reasponsible for what she is..?????first the result was average and now is a step above, thanks to her Frankin-mother.That is what i am trying to prove...Result is way much better than before..I want to remind you Gribbon words ..The "X","Z" or "W" working dog who can take only a "very good" (SG) in conformation is just a NOT complete dobermann.

About health we will see.. hate-king

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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 10:16 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

"I beleive is ok of Beauty or character too...Maybe a little bit less to the beauty than character because of her fathers blood..."

Are you crazy? Argo is very beautiful - a full champion. And his father...

Castor Mooreiche was an International champion - he was not an "ugly" dog.

Anyway, Argo is also a very clever dog who can perform many trycks .

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Dober-maniac



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 10:36 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Basil...i was talking about female one inside the video via link i gave,not for the Argo...Argo is ok...I think that i explained my feelings about him.

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Έχει επεξεργασθεί από τον/την Dober-maniac στις Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 12:04 pm, 1 φορά
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Basil



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ΔημοσίευσηΔημοσιεύθηκε: Δευ Οκτ 18, 2010 10:46 am    Θέμα δημοσίευσης: Απάντηση με παράθεση αυτού του μηνύματος

Ok - a missunderstanding.

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